[cap-talk] network level designation and authorization (RANT)

[John Carlson]

On Jun 8, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Sandro Magi wrote:

> John Carlson wrote:
>> On Jun 7, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Karp, Alan H wrote:
>>
>>> Far better and far simpler
>>> is using unguessable addresses as with web-calculus.
>>
>> Okay, let's use web-calculus.  How do I write a client that can
>> use web-calculus to manage a capability passing system.
>> Say I want to exchange capabilities and build trust between
>> people?  And based upon this, how would I write a multiuser
>> whiteboard?  So far, what I've seen of the client side of web- 
>> calculus,
>> it involves using the  POST and GET classes, and the parameters names
>> that
>> you are supposed to pass are extremely hard to get ahold of
>> (requiring knowledge of XSLT).
>
> Only XML is required if you're using custom client software.
>
Are the parameter names to be passed back to the server in a POST
or a GET available in the XML?

I am looking at
https://localhost/http/yurl.org/Publisher-anoint

I see

super	
Parameters:	http://web-calculus.org/string/String
   The address space label.
http://web-calculus.org/Integer
   The base 2 log of the maximum number of exported capabilities.

Thus, it is very plain what the types of the parameters are, but I don't
see the names anywhere?????

Are the names: 0, 1, 2, 3...  please tell me!

>> How do we make it easier for
>> people to write the client side of web-calculus.  Perhaps I am
>> missing something from the documentation?
>
> The documentation is extremely thin, so you're probably not missing
> anything because it's likely not there. Just like WSDL, the service
> interface is described via XML, and you can inspect (GET) or invoke
> (POST) the reference graph as described the XML document at the link.
>
I've been looking at the schema descriptions, but I still don't see the
parameter names.

>> Maybe someone can tell me how to force the waterken server
>> to process XSLT on the server side, so I can get HTML to work with?
>
> You will need to write XSLT yourself if you want a customized HTML  
> page
> for a given object; XML is the default wire format.
>

I don't want a customized HTML page, I want the default HTML page that
shows in my browser, but I can't seem to see anywhere, because I don't
have or can't find a button for apply XSLT to the view source stuff.

>> I am open to people pointing me to places on one of the web-calculus
>> web sites.
>>
>> I am not open to writing a bunch of XML and XSLT processing steps.
>> Those should be provided.  I am anti-XML because I feel that Scheme
>> or Lisp offer a better solution.  Basically, I want to program in
>> Java on
>> the client side.  How do I do this?
>
> You would still need to process the returned XML, OR define another
> serialization format that you like better (JSON has been mentioned for
> instance).
>
How do I go about writing a serialization format?  XML would be fine
if it contained the parameter names.  So I would know what to send back
to the server.

>> Basically, I have heard a lot of hot air about web-calculus, and
>> only two people digging into the details.  What walls are people  
>> hitting
>> when they approach web-calculus?  Are people just reading web-sites,
>> and not digging into the code?  I think I've tried to explain my
>> issues with web-calculus, but no one seems to be helping me.
>>
>> I HAVEN'T been reading the web-sites, I've been digging into the
>> code.
>
> The only good intro is the series of "Hello World!" examples Tyler  
> wrote:
>
> https://yurl.net/blog/tutorial/home
>
> (appears to be down at the moment)
>

Well it was up when I looked at it.  All I see is Parameter 0 on the  
mutable
hello world.  Is it indeed parameter 0 that appears in the post and  
get, or
something else, hidden in XSLT?

>> I wouldn't declare something useable just because you've
>> read a few web sites, and think lambda-calculus is wonderful.  Just
>> because you see a web site, you fall in love with it?  Get real!
>>
>> I've also tried to develop server side code with web-calculus,
>> and it requires knowledge of XSLT.  What a load of crap!
>
> Actually, XSLT is only needed if you're using a web browser as a  
> client;
> it transforms the standard XML format into HTML so you can browse it.
>
> Sandro

I have a feeling the parameter names are in the XSLT, and they are named
something like doc.0, doc.1, doc.2.  I would just like some  
confirmation, or
an admittance that no one has a clue what the parameters are named.

I think you're admitting that you are required to write XSLT in order  
to get
parameter names.  Thus I am stuck writing XSLT on the server, when all
I want to do is write a client.

I am starting to think that parameter names are like capabilities in  
waterken...you don't
want to let anyone know what they are!

That would be fine....then I would know I HAVE to deal with the  
XSLT.  You
are claiming that I don't need XSLT.

John