[cap-talk] Yes. (was: Can we stop discussing Butler Lampson's opinions now?)

[Jed Donnelley]

<Dr. Sleep - scan down to Hitchhiker's Guide>
On 4/10/2008 1:43 PM, David-Sarah Hopwood wrote:
> Jed Donnelley wrote:
>> On 4/10/2008 9:13 AM, David-Sarah Hopwood wrote:
>> ...
>>> ...Frankly, I don't see what this cult of personality is around Lampson
>>> and his opinions. "He's just zis guy, you know?"
>> I brought his views up to begin with because, while he is only
>> "zis guy" as you say, he is "zis guy" who:
> 
> [big snip]
> 
>> For example, I think the discussion of the results of the Cambridge
>> Cap work is important.
> 
> Why?
> 
> It's one experimental hardware/OS project from ~30 years ago.
> Countless thousands of operating system projects, most not involving
> capabilities, never went anywhere -- very often for non-technical reasons.
> The idea that you can conclude anything significant about an access
> control model from a perceived failure (leaving aside whether Cap
> actually was a failure) of a single OS project that used that model
> is *utter nonsense*.

I agree.  That's why I think it's important.  To know that
Butler's strong opinions (somewhat exaggerated for theatrical
purposes no doubt) stem from such a weak "compelling story",
together with his own "serious" work on capabilities that
seem to me mostly the failed CalTSS system.  If there is
more to his "tried quite a few times ... proven to be a
bust" (e.g. more modern examples such as those that people
are working these days) then perhaps we can take him more
seriously.  Incidentally, I'm confident Butler includes
PSOS in that 'tried and failed' category - as I believe he
rightly should.  Until we hear more of his 'demonstrations'
I think we can effectively dispute his current argument
(engagement).  I think he needs to bring his story (tried
and failed) up to date with examples from the last 10 years
anyway.  I feel this is a good way to blunt (confront,
dismiss, or otherwise minimize) his argument and suggest
that perhaps some people might find fruitful work with
capabilities despite Butler's admonitions to the contrary.

Know your enemy.

> (BTW, "He's just zis guy, you know." is a quote from "Hitchhiker's Guide
> to the Galaxy.")

I didn't remember that.  Thanks for the note.  I well remember
the first time I heard about the Hitchhiker's Guide to
the Galaxy, sitting next to a coal burning fire at the
home of Professor Ronan Sleep in East Anglia in 1981 while
I was on a speaking tour of England (well, Oxford,  Queen's
College London, Kent, East Anglia, Manchester, and Newcastle on
Tyne as I recall).  It was wonderful how they could set up such
tours then.  Do they still?  Dr. Sleep found it difficult to
believe that I'd never before seen coal burn.  How would I growing
up in California?  Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen
coal burn since.  I believe the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
was still on the radio at that time.  I had a delightful time on
that trip (particular thanks for the hospitality of Dr. Sleep, cc'ed)
carrying around a portable video camera - which was rather unusual
at the time.  People gave me the strangest looks, thinking I was
from the television news.  No, I didn't take any coals with me from
East Anglia to Newcastle.  As I recall I was speaking about NLTSS
and my cellular dataflow architecture on the tour.  Thanks for
the reminder (Hitchhiker and David from the UK) of a fun time - when
capabilities weren't yet widely considered in the "tried and failed"
category.

--Jed  http://www.webstart.com/jed/